Curse

electrofish · Dec 03, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

There was another thread about superior runes in general but I want to know more specifically about putting it on Monks, both in PVE and PVP.

Right now I'm running sup vig, minor divine, healing, prot, and vitae on my monk for PVE and PVP. I'm planning to get new armor for her and wonder if I should use the superior monk runes that I've stored up (i've got a 55hp set already).

So what do you guys think?

Monk of Myrodin · Dec 03, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Personally I do (in PvE, but most people suggest that you do not because the extra +1 attribute isn't worth the drop in health. With the lower health (even though it is just -35 or whatever) causes you to be more of a target for enemy mobs from a PvE standpoint, however you can offset this by using a caster sword/axe/spear and shield combo since the extra 8 armor counteracts the drop in health. As for PvP the answer is NO, you typically need as much health as possible for any form of PvP so that you can avoid spikes so go for a major rune instead of superior in this case.

Shuuda · Dec 03, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

unless your a 55, there is absolutely no good reason to run a sup attribute rune, minor is fine.

- You need as much health as you can get in PvP, and maybe high end PvE.
- The extra att points make little difference.

Kwan Xi · Dec 03, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

My PvE monk usually runs a Sup Divine Favor at the time when Monk Runes were like 10-20k due to rampant 55 Farming Sup Divine Favor was the cheapest. When Factions came out Blessed Light was my favorite Elite. I usually kept a Minor Rune on my headpiece so it would be easy to switch between Healing/Protect/Smite when I needed it. With the exception of Direct Smite damage you need Divine Favor to add that extra heal for your spells.

I disagree with the more health less attributes method. Your team would want your spells the strongest possible and every little bit beyond rank 12 helps make your spells stronger. It's your teammate's job to stop anything from coming after you. If your healing it is the protect monk's job to shield you from incoming attack and Healer's job to keep the protect monk's health up.

No amount of HP is going to help you when everyone and their mom comes after you, 600HP is only delay your death for a extra 1-2 secs. Not without help from your teammates My HP range is usually from 450-490 depending on my equipment and armor. If your so scared about HP remember there are Vigor and Vitae runes, Survivor insignias, and Fortitude mods to make up for the loss of health.

JoeKnowMo · Dec 04, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

I disagree with the more health less attributes method. Your team would want your spells the strongest possible and every little bit beyond rank 12 helps make your spells stronger.

A gain of +8HP to your spells is not worth the -75HP loss.

If you get targeted, you (and/or the other monk - assuming you both have sup runes) would need to fire off 10 spells on yourself (during a single encounter) for the increased power of your heals (and the other monk's heals) to balance out the -75HP loss.

A 75HP cushion can often mean the difference between life and death. The same cannot be said for a +8HP gain in healing.

Yichi · Dec 04, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

sell the sup runes to the rune trader imo.

Kwan Xi · Dec 04, 2007, 12:51 AM // 00:51

your talking +8HP gain but thats only for one extra level which is what a minor rune does, A Superior rune especially combined with a head armor with a +1 stacking to the rune and it should give a +4 boost to your attributes which should be a +32HP power to the heals.

A monk's job should be to keep the team alive above all else help the team first. The team should also be doing everything they can to protect the monk from incoming attacks.

But yeah I've been playing for 2 years like this with runes what do I know? don't forget about Runes of Sup Vigor that actually boost health too.

arcady · Dec 04, 2007, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Never

The last thing my monks need are more reasons for mobs to chose them to aggro bunny on.

Just casting monk spells is enough to snare up some agrro, but if I've got the lowest health ping in the PUG, I know it's going to be a hard day.

Shawn The Divine · Dec 04, 2007, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

you need Divine Favor to add that extra heal for your spells. // your talking +8HP gain but thats only for one extra level which is what a minor rune does, A Superior rune especially combined with a head armor with a +1 stacking to the rune and it should give a +4 boost to your attributes which should be a +32HP power to the heals. // But yeah I've been playing for 2 years like this with runes what do I know?

Apparently not much. Divine favor gives you 3.2 health per rank. 16 in divine over 12 in divine would give you 13 more hp per cast.
Also blessed light is pretty bad. I hope you've changed since then.

Toutatis · Dec 04, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

On healing, protection or hybrid monks I would generally use minor runes only. From the PvE perspective, monsters will usually target the party members with the least health first, so a monk with a health penalty coming from a superior rune is going to be a prime target.

For a smiting monk, I would consider using one superior rune at most. Smiters are usually the second or third monk in a party and aren't expected to act as the party's backbone in the same way; instead dealing direct damage and reflecting incoming damage back. Monsters seem to like to target monks, so the smiter can lower his health a little and act as a midline monk decoy to keep some of the pressure off the heal/prot monks in the backline.

Kwan Xi · Dec 04, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

I'm talking about General Spells not the Divine Favor Bonus (then again every little bit in Divine favor helps too) feel free to use Sup Healing or Protection.

It doesn't have to be a Sup Divine Favor its just a rune I've been using because It was cheaper at the time, you should get a better boost in power if you use Superior Healing or Protection runes instead.

BTW: Blessed Light I don't use it often anymore (I was using it often when Factions was released) but I still think its useful with the recent buff to it at 16 Divine Favor it gives 149HP plus hex and condition removal, 3 second recharge time. Glyph of Lesser Energy can still help with energy management.

Anyway... I believe in the Superior Runes are a benefit for monks it helps me be better at monking, I never get any complaints from the people I play with, and I never had serious problems staying alive with a good team.

But yeah its how I play it might not be everyone but it works for me. Call me a bad monk, a Stupid monk, or whatever I don't care, its just how I play its its just my style. This is just my opinion its not right or wrong so if you disagree with it oh well please don't take it seriously.

arcady · Dec 04, 2007, 02:32 AM // 02:32

I once PUG'd on my Elementalist with a monk who had 1 in divine favor - only because of an extra point left over. When I suggested that he cut down his maxed out Heal and Prot and put at least a 9 into Divine, if not more, he more or less made a similar comment to the above - I've been doing this for so and so long, no one ever complains, and finally the added note that I was an E not an Mo and he knew Monking.

I didn't complain, I just made that one comment. I didn't point out that this was my alt and I had two monks. The real reason he didn't get complaints is that 1: most people probably didn't notice as he only ping'd his build there in a determination of who's hero between the others would be the second monk. and 2: people who noticed it probably just left the PUG. I didn't, but I should have...

It was hard to talk with my jaw dragging along the ground, so yeah, I didn't complain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

But yeah its how I play it might not be everyone but it works for me. Call me a bad monk, a Stupid monk, or whatever I don't care, its just how I play its its just my style. This is just my opinion its not right or wrong so if you disagree with it oh well please don't take it seriously.

Contrary to what teachers that grew up in my generation - hippie kids of the 70s - like to say, many opinions -ARE- wrong. In fact, sometimes you will have multiple opinions on something and only one of them is right.

It doesn't matter that you 'have a right to be you and me' and we should all just feel good and happy... If one person is wrong and another is right, even if they agree to disagree and have a group hug, one of them is still wrong.

Either you are wrong, or we are wrong. Both sides in this cannot be right. We can agree to disagree, but one side here is wrong.

Kwan Xi · Dec 04, 2007, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

A 75HP cushion can often mean the difference between life and death. The same cannot be said for a +8HP gain in healing.

Yeah in case I didn't make this clear I thought he was talking about the general strength boost of healing spells if you applied a Rune of Superior Healing. My fault sorry.

Rexion · Dec 04, 2007, 03:10 AM // 03:10

sacrifice your 75 health to heal 3 points higher. meh, if its my job to heal high... might as well?

Keekles · Dec 04, 2007, 06:52 AM // 06:52

I personally don't use sup runes anymore. I like having lots of hp for a buffer.

Joshie0808 · Dec 04, 2007, 07:52 AM // 07:52

I run full survivor with 1 sup healing and 1 minor prot. (vitae and vigor on the rest) Using a staff like the scar eater with a +60hp usually gives me about 540hp.

Sup runes SUCK on heroes, but on myself, idunno, i never have problems where i get targeted first. Having good groups and proper tanking (from the tank) and you having good kiting all play a factor.

IMO, in general, it just depends on what your comfortable with.

azizul1975 · Dec 04, 2007, 08:03 AM // 08:03

i say dont use sup runes, use 2 major runes instead, then play around with the attribute points. thats what i do, and i'm comfortable with it.

yeah, if you use those runes that have health deduction, you really need sup vigor and +60hp staff, which will give you 110hp.

usually i get my health to around 530-540.

Washi · Dec 04, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kwan Xi

But yeah I've been playing for 2 years like this with runes what do I know? don't forget about Runes of Sup Vigor that actually boost health too.

Hey, I've seen people playing mending wammos for 2 years, you suggest they know anything about the game?

Difference between minor and sup runes are bigger than people suggest here, but still it's not worth the health loss.

WOH heals for 216 with 14 healing and for 244 with 16 healing so 28hp difference
ZB heals for 170 with 14 prot and for 190 with 16 prot so its 20hp difference

BUT -75 hp means you die on a good spike and your high heals die with you

In pvp there is no real choice, with sup rune you're just a dead meat for a good sin/derv/war

In high end pve you could get away with it IF you have a good protter and a human paragon. Well to tell you the truth, with a good human paragon you can survive anything.

And in normal pve orison/healing breeze "works" so it doesnt matter anyway.

You say you compensate it with +60 hp weapon and survivor runes, well there are more useful weapon mods and runes/insignias like +++energy. Whats the point of a powerfull heal if you have no energy to cast it.

Sun Fired Blank · Dec 04, 2007, 08:48 AM // 08:48

If it helps, I think arcady and Kwan Xi, are both right and wrong. I honestly don't have much of a problem with up to two superior runes in most normal areas of PvE, if you can make sure you have at least 450 health when everything is said and done. The monsters usually don't hit you very hard, and it's fairly unlikely they can crush through even 400 HP before you or your AI companion punches a heal out, which means that you can opt for as much mileage as you can get from your skills, much like Kwan Xi. I ran Dunkoro as hybrid prot at 405 HP through most areas of Nightfall and Eye of the North with a Kepkhet's Refuge, no Survivor Runes, no Vitae runes and no Vigor runes. I think he died maybe three times in Eye of the North; once when I stupidly aggroed a gigantic mob of angorodons, once against that demonic shockwave-using dinosaur boss in Asura lands, and once against the Great Destroyer. And I wouldn't say that any of those deaths were truly the fault of using superior runes, I wiped anyways. So really, it is a gamble. I think there's definitely a point where the extra power to your skills helps to relieve pressure, and there's also a point where the pressure will make you crack prematurely if you don't have the health buffer, but in most normal mode areas, the latter isn't usually a problem, so my answer would be: why not. In hard mode, though, I severely advise against more than one superior runes. When I used to vanquish, in some areas that I haven't scouted properly, I encountered groups that were able to put serious pressure on armored-up, 550 to 600 HP heroes, and that was through a solid monk backline and multiple layers of passive and active protection (Aegis, Wards, Blind, Blurred Vision), so I can gander that a monk with more than one superior rune, especially without a general HP or armor bonus, would probably crack repeatedly.

the_jos · Dec 04, 2007, 11:44 AM // 11:44

For NM PvE, you could use superior runes without a problem.
For HM PvE it depends a little more.
Sure, you might be target for the foes once they break the frontline, but then, the other casters most probably use superior runes, making them equal targets health wise.
Using +health or +armor insignia's should cover that problem.

In PvP there is once choice, minor runes.